It was very interesting to read the internet exchanges, that you so patiently and honestly responded to. I guess it is near impossible to converse with someone who prefers misinformation and feeding their own biases.
My blood pressure is through the roof just READING all this; how you actually manage to engage it without going into cardiac arrest is beyond me. Kudos.
I simply don't understand how you can engage civililly with Nazis and their useful idiots. It's horrifying. It makes me sick how many leftists believe this crap and it depresses me to read it. What depresses me the most is that the Democratic party in the United States buys into the fundamental lie that the IDF is indiscriminately bombing Gaza rather than taking extraordinary care to avoid killing civilians when Hamas' entire strategy is to sacrifice them. Harris essentially said it last night.
Dear David, Thank you for using the term adversaries rather than enemies. That's appreciated.
There are several issues that you raise in this article.
With my limited understanding of this part of the world, I am going to try to answer some of them. These are obviously my opinions.
First is the issue of self defense.
The Oct 7 attack was horrendous, cruel and terrifying. There is no debate about that.
Disturbingly, there were clear warnings that this attack was coming. I don't know why the warnings were ignored but they were.
Regarding the unarmed women watching the border
...
From a BBC article Jan 24
"It was clear to some of these women that Hamas was planning something big - that there was, in Noa's words, a "balloon that was going to burst".
The BBC has now spoken to these young women about the escalation in suspicious activity they observed, the reports they filed, and what they saw as a lack of response from senior Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officers."
Incompetence or worse? I am not sure.
Regarding Hamas
I am not sure that many Israelis are open to discussions about root causes.
However, it is my opinion that the military action Israel is conducting in Gaza is not only expensive in dollars and reputational loss. It is not only horrendously cruel in the lives lost or ruined but it is futile.
Hamas is not a disease like polio. It is a political movement that derives it's support from the conditions under which Palestinians lived prior to Oct 7.
Everyone I hear from who lives or even visits Israel talks about what a wonderful place it is and how much they love living there. Even strong critics of Israeli policy like
Mikhael Manekin say this.
Do you seriously think that if the amazing, affluent lifestyle of Israelis was enjoyed by Palestinians (their own version of course) that Hamas would have any support at all?
I don't. For every Palestinian life cut down, another Hamas supporter will spring up.
Also the numbers...
I have already shared the Washington Post's explanation on why they use the Hamas run Health Authority's numbers so I won't repeat that. As you are aware, both mainstream media and the NGOs trying to help in Gaza accept those numbers. Many think they are much too low because of bodies likely buried beneath the rubble.
The reality is no one knows the true number and likely won't for quite a while. Remember how the number of lives lost in the attack on the World Towers kept changing? The US was working under much different conditions and it still took a while.
Also, I recall over my lifetime occasionally encountering someone who would argue about the number of lives lost during the genocide of WWII?
I would have a visceral negative reaction and would to this day.
We don't want to go there in.my opinion. There is unimaginable suffering occurring whatever the actual tally is.
Hi Connie. In the case of the failure to stop the attack, much ink has been spilled, and in my opinion it comes down to a failure of imagination and wishful thinking, together with a carefully cultivated strategy by Hamas to convince Israel that they were satisfied with the flow of money from abroad and the access to employment for an increasing number of Gazans in Israel. To believe in a darker conspiracy would require strong evidence, which I haven't seen.
I think you misconstrue cause and effect in Gaza. Since 2014, Israel has done everything it could to avoid a ground campaign in Gaza. The high (sadly small compared to the current war) death toll among Israeli troops when they went in in 2014 gave Israel strong incentives to avoid doing it again.
If you look back to before Hamas won the Palestinian Parliamentary election in 2006 and took power in Gaza in a coup in 2007, you will see that the Gazans were free to travel to the West Bank, and that economic activity had fewer obstacles. Israel had pulled out of Gaza and there was an opportunity to develop the economy with no interference from the Israeli army and using resources that had been left behind when Israel removed all Israeli residents in 2005.
The dire conditions in Gaza came about as a result of Hamas violence against Israel, not the other way around.
If you go back further to the late 1990's, the international community built an airport in Gaza and lots of development aid was pouring in. That came to an end as a result of the launch of the second intifada in 2000. Again, while the attempt to build peace with Israel was still under way, conditions in Gaza were improving. When Arafat returned to terrorism, Israel retaliated and things got much worse.
Mixing up cause and effect result in the bizarre situation we currently face in which Israel is attacked in the most atrocious manner imaginable and the whole world is outraged at Israel for trying to get to the perpetrators and rescue their hostages. Somehow none of the global outrage is directed against Hamas, which knew exactly what would happen to the people of Gaza when they did what they did on October 7. Hamas continues to refuse to agree to a truce because they prioritize harming Israel over sparing the people of Gaza more harm. This is not about a lack of compassion for the people of Gaza, but rather failing to identify the party most responsible for the harm the people of Gaza are suffering.
On the numbers, you are right that the exact numbers will only be known after the war. But my article was intended to show how the numbers are being used now to misrepresent Israel's conduct in Gaza. I also believe that the numbers coming out of Gaza should be treated with much greater skepticism by the media and academic experts. Everyone who operates in Gaza is beholden to Hamas. Senior positions in UNRWA and at Gaza hospitals are in the gift of Hamas, and people who owe their positions to Hamas are under a great deal of pressure to say what Hamas wants them to say. Global humanitarian agencies likewise employ local staff who have families which would suffer consequences, if they say anything that disagrees with what Hama wants the world to believe.
We know what kind of organization Hamas is. It's the kind of organization that perpetrates the atrocities of October 7. We know what they want, because they write it and say it all the time. They want every Jew in the world dead. As a matter of principle they will never accept coexistence with Israel and we know, because Sinwar was caught on tape saying it, that they want more Gazans to become martyrs. They see the global anger at Israel as a victory, and that is one reason why they are refusing a hostage deal, even as Israel continues day after day to uncover their hideouts in Gaza and kill their fighters.
Questioning the numbers coming from Hamas is not like questioning the numbers killed in the Holocaust. There is insufficient effort to verify the numbers, given their source. When the war is over, more accurate numbers will be known and I won't question them. Right now the numbers are being used by the enemy to generate international pressure on Israel, to stop them from eliminating the regime that perpetrated October 7, and to extract a very high price for the freedom of the hostages.
Israel has already agreed to release hundreds of Palestinians who have murdered Israelis in return for the release of the hostages. That is an obscenely high price for freeing 100 innocent people, 30 of whom are known to have been murdered in captivity. But that price is not high enough for Hamas to agree to a truce and so the fighting goes on.
Israel will find more hostages. I hope to God that they will be alive. Eventually they will find and kill Sinwar. He can prevent this by taking the deal which is on the table, offered by Israel through the US, Qatar and Egypt. Hamas doesn't want a truce. They are perfectly prepared to sacrifice thousands more Gazans, rather than give Israel anything that it can call a victory.
For things to get better in Gaza, Hamas has to have mercy on the Israeli hostages as well as on the people Gaza. You should be clear on who is keeping the war going. Israel has a duty to the hostages to bring them home either through diplomacy or through force of arms. The diplomatic option is on the table. All Sinwar has to do is say "yes". Until then, to me it is perverse to talk of a lack of mercy from Israel.
It is Hamas that is merciless. If they weren't there would be no war.
It was very interesting to read the internet exchanges, that you so patiently and honestly responded to. I guess it is near impossible to converse with someone who prefers misinformation and feeding their own biases.
My blood pressure is through the roof just READING all this; how you actually manage to engage it without going into cardiac arrest is beyond me. Kudos.
I simply don't understand how you can engage civililly with Nazis and their useful idiots. It's horrifying. It makes me sick how many leftists believe this crap and it depresses me to read it. What depresses me the most is that the Democratic party in the United States buys into the fundamental lie that the IDF is indiscriminately bombing Gaza rather than taking extraordinary care to avoid killing civilians when Hamas' entire strategy is to sacrifice them. Harris essentially said it last night.
Dear David, Thank you for using the term adversaries rather than enemies. That's appreciated.
There are several issues that you raise in this article.
With my limited understanding of this part of the world, I am going to try to answer some of them. These are obviously my opinions.
First is the issue of self defense.
The Oct 7 attack was horrendous, cruel and terrifying. There is no debate about that.
Disturbingly, there were clear warnings that this attack was coming. I don't know why the warnings were ignored but they were.
Regarding the unarmed women watching the border
...
From a BBC article Jan 24
"It was clear to some of these women that Hamas was planning something big - that there was, in Noa's words, a "balloon that was going to burst".
The BBC has now spoken to these young women about the escalation in suspicious activity they observed, the reports they filed, and what they saw as a lack of response from senior Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officers."
Incompetence or worse? I am not sure.
Regarding Hamas
I am not sure that many Israelis are open to discussions about root causes.
However, it is my opinion that the military action Israel is conducting in Gaza is not only expensive in dollars and reputational loss. It is not only horrendously cruel in the lives lost or ruined but it is futile.
Hamas is not a disease like polio. It is a political movement that derives it's support from the conditions under which Palestinians lived prior to Oct 7.
Everyone I hear from who lives or even visits Israel talks about what a wonderful place it is and how much they love living there. Even strong critics of Israeli policy like
Mikhael Manekin say this.
Do you seriously think that if the amazing, affluent lifestyle of Israelis was enjoyed by Palestinians (their own version of course) that Hamas would have any support at all?
I don't. For every Palestinian life cut down, another Hamas supporter will spring up.
Also the numbers...
I have already shared the Washington Post's explanation on why they use the Hamas run Health Authority's numbers so I won't repeat that. As you are aware, both mainstream media and the NGOs trying to help in Gaza accept those numbers. Many think they are much too low because of bodies likely buried beneath the rubble.
The reality is no one knows the true number and likely won't for quite a while. Remember how the number of lives lost in the attack on the World Towers kept changing? The US was working under much different conditions and it still took a while.
Also, I recall over my lifetime occasionally encountering someone who would argue about the number of lives lost during the genocide of WWII?
I would have a visceral negative reaction and would to this day.
We don't want to go there in.my opinion. There is unimaginable suffering occurring whatever the actual tally is.
Let's start by showing mercy. It is needed.
Hi Connie. In the case of the failure to stop the attack, much ink has been spilled, and in my opinion it comes down to a failure of imagination and wishful thinking, together with a carefully cultivated strategy by Hamas to convince Israel that they were satisfied with the flow of money from abroad and the access to employment for an increasing number of Gazans in Israel. To believe in a darker conspiracy would require strong evidence, which I haven't seen.
I think you misconstrue cause and effect in Gaza. Since 2014, Israel has done everything it could to avoid a ground campaign in Gaza. The high (sadly small compared to the current war) death toll among Israeli troops when they went in in 2014 gave Israel strong incentives to avoid doing it again.
If you look back to before Hamas won the Palestinian Parliamentary election in 2006 and took power in Gaza in a coup in 2007, you will see that the Gazans were free to travel to the West Bank, and that economic activity had fewer obstacles. Israel had pulled out of Gaza and there was an opportunity to develop the economy with no interference from the Israeli army and using resources that had been left behind when Israel removed all Israeli residents in 2005.
The dire conditions in Gaza came about as a result of Hamas violence against Israel, not the other way around.
If you go back further to the late 1990's, the international community built an airport in Gaza and lots of development aid was pouring in. That came to an end as a result of the launch of the second intifada in 2000. Again, while the attempt to build peace with Israel was still under way, conditions in Gaza were improving. When Arafat returned to terrorism, Israel retaliated and things got much worse.
Mixing up cause and effect result in the bizarre situation we currently face in which Israel is attacked in the most atrocious manner imaginable and the whole world is outraged at Israel for trying to get to the perpetrators and rescue their hostages. Somehow none of the global outrage is directed against Hamas, which knew exactly what would happen to the people of Gaza when they did what they did on October 7. Hamas continues to refuse to agree to a truce because they prioritize harming Israel over sparing the people of Gaza more harm. This is not about a lack of compassion for the people of Gaza, but rather failing to identify the party most responsible for the harm the people of Gaza are suffering.
On the numbers, you are right that the exact numbers will only be known after the war. But my article was intended to show how the numbers are being used now to misrepresent Israel's conduct in Gaza. I also believe that the numbers coming out of Gaza should be treated with much greater skepticism by the media and academic experts. Everyone who operates in Gaza is beholden to Hamas. Senior positions in UNRWA and at Gaza hospitals are in the gift of Hamas, and people who owe their positions to Hamas are under a great deal of pressure to say what Hamas wants them to say. Global humanitarian agencies likewise employ local staff who have families which would suffer consequences, if they say anything that disagrees with what Hama wants the world to believe.
We know what kind of organization Hamas is. It's the kind of organization that perpetrates the atrocities of October 7. We know what they want, because they write it and say it all the time. They want every Jew in the world dead. As a matter of principle they will never accept coexistence with Israel and we know, because Sinwar was caught on tape saying it, that they want more Gazans to become martyrs. They see the global anger at Israel as a victory, and that is one reason why they are refusing a hostage deal, even as Israel continues day after day to uncover their hideouts in Gaza and kill their fighters.
Questioning the numbers coming from Hamas is not like questioning the numbers killed in the Holocaust. There is insufficient effort to verify the numbers, given their source. When the war is over, more accurate numbers will be known and I won't question them. Right now the numbers are being used by the enemy to generate international pressure on Israel, to stop them from eliminating the regime that perpetrated October 7, and to extract a very high price for the freedom of the hostages.
Israel has already agreed to release hundreds of Palestinians who have murdered Israelis in return for the release of the hostages. That is an obscenely high price for freeing 100 innocent people, 30 of whom are known to have been murdered in captivity. But that price is not high enough for Hamas to agree to a truce and so the fighting goes on.
Israel will find more hostages. I hope to God that they will be alive. Eventually they will find and kill Sinwar. He can prevent this by taking the deal which is on the table, offered by Israel through the US, Qatar and Egypt. Hamas doesn't want a truce. They are perfectly prepared to sacrifice thousands more Gazans, rather than give Israel anything that it can call a victory.
For things to get better in Gaza, Hamas has to have mercy on the Israeli hostages as well as on the people Gaza. You should be clear on who is keeping the war going. Israel has a duty to the hostages to bring them home either through diplomacy or through force of arms. The diplomatic option is on the table. All Sinwar has to do is say "yes". Until then, to me it is perverse to talk of a lack of mercy from Israel.
It is Hamas that is merciless. If they weren't there would be no war.